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Please, if you never read any of my journals, I implore you to at least read this one.

This is a topic that has been quite a nuisance since the start of season two of MLP:FiM. Why is that though? I mean, it shouldn't be a problem, right?... Well, I've been seeing some traits among the fandom that have been quite disturbing. I think before we get into that, let's look at the two terms and their differences. Now, it's eight in the morning for me and I'm running on only two hours of sleep after a good twenty(ish) awake, so I might not be here fully and use "proper" grammar, so too bad.

As I said before, let's take a closer look at the two terms, "Canon" and "fanon." What do they mean to us? For most people, the canon of the show is everything that the producers/artists/storyboarders throw into the show, making them "facts" of the world they live in. For instance, we all know that Twilight lives in the Ponyville Library, or that Pinkie Pie has two unnamed sisters. Some look at this term as the rules or guidelines that all must follow when making fan made content, either art or fan fiction. They also view the canon as the ABSOLUTE and only way things can and must be, for the greater good.

Fanon, on the other hand, is anything and everything that us fans of the show have dubbed as our "Fan canon", "head canon", or "fanon". Essentially aspects that do not appear in the show, or are not fully explained in the show, that we take upon ourselves to fill in the gaps that the creators have left open. For instance, in the canon part I mentioned Pinkie's sisters. Since they are never named officially in the show, us fans have come up with names for them. Inkie and Blinkie Pie. We've even given them their own personalities. All of which we've based souly on their few minute appearances and our own interpretations we've made up.

Over the course of a year and four months, this fandom has exploded the fanon into something huge. For instance, when I say the names Lyra and Bon Bon, what are your first thoughts? If you are part of the Brony community in ANY way, you instantly go "They are a couple that live in Ponyville." That is the fanon part of your brain saying that. Canon wise, they are a couple background ponies who are used regularly to add ponies where needed as audience or part of a crowd. Sure, there are rumors that we have influenced the makers to actually put them together in scenes, but is that true? Again, that's more aspects of the fanon coming out.

Then again, one huge step from the fanon is Derpy Hooves. Born as a animation error, she became official canon and has now gone so far as to have her own voice in the show. This is a great way that the makers of the show have given us recognition as fans, and I myself was more than pleased with her Easter egg appearances, but now giving her a personality and voice for about two minutes? That's awesome, it didn't need to happen, but was still awesome.

Now, just because Derpy became reality doesn't mean that other things are gonna go our way. By that, I mean we can give them tons of fanon traits all we want, but we can't make them incorporate what all we have made up into the show. It would be like telling them what to do, instead of allowing them to do what they do best. It would ruin it, and that is where people are starting to get pushy. They talk about having these different aspects of the fanon incorporated into the show, but it just can't happen that way. A lot of people apparently were upset with Derpy's "personality" in the latest episode, which made her out to be dumb and accident prone.

I don't care who you are, it was comical. This is a cartoon for little girls, not like some real life drama tv program we're watching. Back in the day, did people complain about how Bugs Bunny acted, or Daffy Duck? No, because that wasn't the point of the show! It was meant to make us laugh and enjoy the comedy where appropriate. But so many of us are allowing the fanon to block our views of what messages and jokes the show is trying to give us, that we can't appreciate it like the younger audience does.

Ask any young child who watched the episode, they laughed. They enjoyed it. I enjoyed it, so did many other bronies, but far too many of us didn't. All because they couldn't accept this "canon" Derpy, and insist their "fanon" Derpy (Or Ditzy, oh don't get me started on that) is the "true" her. It's all horseshit, no pun intended(?).  As a community, especially this one, we have to come to terms with what the producers do with the show. We can't allow our fanon aspects to influence us or change our view of events. So many times when something happens in an episode, I hear people complain that "Oh boy, there goes the fanon" or simply complain that it's not how they "felt" it should be. I don't care what you think, or what parts of the fanon crumble from it, they make up the canon, so they choose what happens and why.

There is more than simply adapting the fanon to the canon, because that's easy to do. What isn't easy to do, for quite the number of people I'm seeing, is actually >i>separating</i> the fanon from the canon. If you don't catch yourself soon enough, your entire view of the show shifts into this ugly pimple on my forehead (the one just above my right eye... damn it itches). You constantly will judge aspects of the show, and not fully enjoying the experience of the comedy, which is never intended to stick fully to the canon in the first place. If that were the case, then most of the comedy and stunts in the show couldn't happen, which is why it is a cartoon meant for children, not some reality tv show for us adults.

So please, before you go off and rant about something happening in an episode that messes with your head canon, or the fanon in general, look at it from a child's perspective. It's a cartoon meant to teach us a lesson and allow us to have some fun while doing so, not for us to nip pick at and fill in all the gaps that aren't there. It is alright for us to do that on our own, make our fan art and fan fiction, it's all perfectly good. Just make sure that no matter what, it does not mess with your views of the show.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need some sleep. I might wake up in a few hours and edit this, but I felt like getting this out there asap.
  • Mood: Relief
  • Drinking: Sunkist
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:iconforlanceabice1:
ForlanceAbice1 Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2014
Fanon is a cancer. If people do not realize this, then perhaps they should have their fingers slashed.

Good riddance I say.
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:iconl4m3ness:
L4m3ness Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2012
Keep calm, Rob.. keep calm.. Oh, wait, this won't work. I think you'll make a rage post,.. maybe in the next few hours? Maybe in 1-2 days? We'll see.
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:iconchinchillashogunxam:
ChinchillaShogunXam Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I'm constantly seeing people pestered, including myself, over silly little matters like this. How do I portray Derpy? As I saw her in the episode, which was perfectly adorable and rocked my socks off. How do I address Derpy? It varies, some people call her Derpy, some people call her Ditzy, one could be a real name, the other a nickname. Point is she's been addressed by both at one point in the series, and I think both are adorable. So will I stick to one name? No, because there's a variety of characters and personalities out there for me to write about. Is any of it canon? No! It's fan fiction, my own little design, like playing with dolls. Do you walk up to a little girl or boy playing with their toys and says, "Dinosaurs can't talk! Why are you acting like your dinosaurs can talk?!" Of course not, it's all in the imagination. Am I going to mess with what's in stone? Not at all, I'm just drawing pretty picture on it in chalk, washable chalk. And while some people out there look at this as graffiti, I look at it as art. So kudos dude, for saying it like it is. :)
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:iconjumbledbee:
JumbledBee Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well the thing is that people want to see my little pony as a world, well at least I do. It's the point where people get to attached to it where they don't want it to change. I don't care what they do, as long as it's tasteful(although I might say the pinkie pie and the gingerbread house thing seemed forced)
. And the derpy thing, I was more excited that they acknowledged us by making our well known fanon character into the real Thing. Also for fanon, I don't mind any of it as long as it's tasteful as well. For instance if I read a shipping fanfic and it may contain some, well, you know, I don't just want it to be "lets do it just because!", I'd rather have it to be more DAAAWWW. as for cupcakes, I don't see why people get so worked up about it, It was morbid and bad but that's not what the pinkie i came to love would do.
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:iconhachaosagent:
HAchaosagent Featured By Owner Jan 24, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
100% agree on your views.
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:iconmrlolcats17:
MrLolcats17 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist
Everything said here is true, and I was going to write something lengthy and constructive, but I think amimuzofan covered just about all I did want to say.

I was witnessing an argument by a few people on a Team Fortress 2 Server just yesterday, where they were debating how Derpy should've been Ditzy. One of them was saying that Derpy should've been Ditzy Doo in the show Only because of a fan fiction that he had made where she was an intelligent, undercover agent.
I and a few others who were previously uninvolved in this argument soon expressed our opinions of how we found that reasoning completely stupid.

We can't all get what we want, so we just have to suck it up and move on. But it seems some people just can't do the latter part.
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:iconmrlolcats17:
MrLolcats17 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist
It'd help if I could spell peoples user-names right too.... *amimizunofan was whom I meant.
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:iconsirpeppermintjam:
SirPeppermintJam Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Shit, bro...

It's like you got my guide from the future and are picking it apart subject by subject.

You're basically doing what I wanted to do.

Not that I'm gonna stop you. Hopefully people learn from this.

(Also, been thinking about dropping the guide. Too much work for something that may potentially be ignored.)
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
What exactly do you mean by your guide?
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:iconsirpeppermintjam:
SirPeppermintJam Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I never mentioned it to you? I could have sworn I did.

I'm working on a guide on how to be a better brony, and I've interviewed some prominent people in the fandom, as well as some people who are anti-brony, just to get their side of things.

I'm thinking about dropping it for now.
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:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
"Guide from the future"? I am intrigued...
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:iconsirpeppermintjam:
SirPeppermintJam Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I am working on a guide on how to be a better brony. And it's like ROB got the guide from the future.

Basically, he's saying everything I wanted to say.
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:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
Sounds like an interesting project! And yes, he seems to be covering the sort of things you'd put into such a guide. Maybe you can compile his relevant journal entries with his permission and add whatever else you were gonna say! :D
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:iconsirpeppermintjam:
SirPeppermintJam Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I was thinking about that.

I was also thinking about dropping the guide all together, and maybe just put up some freakishly long journal entry that no-one will read.
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:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
Well, regardless of which you do, could you link it to me if and when you finish it?
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:iconsirpeppermintjam:
SirPeppermintJam Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Hmm...

Sure, why not.
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:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
Cool, thanks! :)

By the way, I don't know if I've ever acknowledged or thanked you for your editorial work on "My Little Dashie". I'd like to do so now. Thanks, and good work!
:iconthumbsupplz:
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(1 Reply)
:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
I want to write a long, detailed response to such a lengthy but well-thought-out journal, but I'm afraid my feelings are too succinct to allow for that.

In any case, I hear you about this rabid entitlement that pervades some parts of the fandom. I'm fine with people simply disliking Derpy's voice and/or mannerisms, but it's when they start actually complaining about it or saying "it sucked" or some such bunk that I get a little frazzled. Aside from my perspective on this whole fanon vs. canon and entitlement issue, my primary thought is, "Well, maybe you should have thought of that when you collectively decided to call her Derpy." The creators were only trying to give us what they thought we wanted based on what they've seen and heard from us.

Regardless, you are spot on (as you typically are when venting...I'm glad you air this stuff out rather than sit and stew over it) with this assessment. Working in retail, I am sadly aware of the sense of entitlement that a dishearteningly large amount of people have. Really, I believe it's a product of our society that so many people believe that everyone else owes them something, but that's a different story. The point is, yes, people need to get off their high horses and learn to appreciate the show for what it is, not for what they think it should be. Perhaps they haven't been such a passionate fan about something for so long that they've forgotten how to appreciate the object of their affection and adoration properly. Perhaps they're getting too spoiled by the unique atmosphere of interaction that exists with this show between its creators and its fans. Whichever of these reasons (or others, or even combinations thereof) are the case, it still stands that they need to grow up and move past thinking things revolve around them.

The creators of the show just threw us the biggest bone they could find, and we need to accept it and savor it.

Okay, so that wasn't super short, but it still feels inadequate in length compared to your outpouring here. Oh well, it's all I've got.
:iconapplejackshrugplz:
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
Very good man, very good.
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:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
Glad it was worth a response, however brief! I know you're a busy guy. ;)
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:iconkit-n-kachi:
Kit-n-Kachi Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
I LOVED Derpy's appearance and what you described in the journal is part of the reason why I try not to come up with any personalities or traits in a head canon because if it turns out wrong then it feels weird. (but I DO let myself have fun by creating OCs and the like)
Reply
:iconmagrior:
Magrior Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
Since I'm not a writer of many words, let me just say:

True words were spoken. Let's hope they'll be recognized by many.
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:iconardashir:
ardashir Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Very well said, sir! Myself, I like seeing Derpy in the show.
Reply
:iconandroidpudding:
AndroidPudding Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Well, I still have Davenport, anyway.

Aint no way they'll canon him.
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:iconrealaudeo:
realAUDEO Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I know what you mean, I have been a brony since episode one of season 2 and so has my friend DEL (using his account name), he called me right after the the episode with Ditzy Doo talking in it, he was ranting about her and how he is mad his favrit charecter was ruined.

I tried telling him that I love fan made storys about the background charecters, like Octavia is realy "Inkymimi Darine Pie" and how she changed her name to Octavia because she didnt want any of the upper-class-pony's to know that she is a farm pony and how she loves vinyl scratch (DJ Pon3), but she cant stand her (and so much more like lyraXbonbon)

but he felt the same and explained this FIMFiction he read about her,m he said her personality was awsome, I then said quickly said that I think of my Dash as my Daghter after I read "My Little Dashie" (Thank you Rob for that experince) and how I cried for 2 hours, an how it has been almost 2 weeks since I found that story and I still cant stop thinking about it as if it became part of me, I told right their I still dont let it chang my point of veiw on the show, wht if I let the FIM called CUPKAKES get to me and change my point of view on Pinkamina Dian Pie or Pinky Pie, HE DIDNT LISTEN TO THAT ETHER (I keep My Little Dashie on my phone with all the other great FIM/FAN-Fictions for when I want to read them)

Thank you for turning out to be the upstrait guy I thought you were and please tell me if you read this, I would like to know when my message was sent, thank you again Rob
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:iconficksitup:
Ficksitup Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Student Writer
Frankly, I was somewhat appaled that people were BITCHING about Derpy Hooves actually being mentioned, and given a voice, and given a somewhat different personality than people expected.

I love Bronies.

But we're turning into an insatiable fanbase.
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Mhm.
Reply
:iconficksitup:
Ficksitup Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Student Writer
Even so, Bronies are still rather endearing in general.
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:iconalpha117:
alpha117 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
I'm not going to go into my views on how canon is a silly term in a kids show this episodic, but I just wanted to say--

Ultimately it's about the stories people want to tell, and if they want to write about Ditzy Doo or Luna (back before we had /anything/) then they are welcome to. But it is silly, not to mention ungracious, to act affronted when the creator's choices contradict one's own. That being said I don't see why it should limit anyone! I don't see why fanon has to crumble. So I hope people don't go around saying "canon is everything" either.

I know that's not much different from what's in your journal but I had to get it off my chest...we need to just relax about what is essentially a very silly hobby.
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:iconjrg316:
jrg316 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
I was actually a little disappointed with this episode. It seemed to forget that AJ was the Element of Honesty, making the whole episode her covering up a lie. Now, i can understand her feeling of work=success much like Applebuck Season, but this was different. She wasn't trying to prove anything because she is stubborn, she was trying to cover up her mistakes by not only lying to the entirety of Ponyville and her family, but to her own self of being an apple farmer. To me, this would be more believable RD episode (switch out rodeo with air show and cherry ranch to an out-of-town weather job, or circus). lol srry for the long comment :P
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:iconamimizunofan22:
amimizunofan22 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2012
I'm not sure that I agree entirely with that assessment. While it was indeed about her trying to cover up what she perceived as her failure, I don't know that it was all one big scheme to lie. Her plan was to raise enough money to take care of what she said she was going to take care of. My guess is that she would have given the Mayor the money and dodged any and all questions about the rodeo. Just because everypony would have assumed that she got the money by winning at the rodeo does not mean that she would be lying about anything.

Put differently, the fact that she was trying to run away from having to tell the truth does not mean that she was actively lying. They didn't forget that she's the Element of Honesty; she only hid it, not defied it.
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
That is a very good point you bring up, and I agree with you with that.
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:iconadellbaker:
AdellBaker Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
I see that they made Derpy talk for us as a way to show us that they care about what we think people love Derpy and the other background pony's Derpy talking may be the start of something big maybe who no's maybe there will be a episode where All the background pony's have something to say? All i no is some how that we called her Derpy we made this happen we made Fan art,Fanficiction's and at times youtube videos we made her popler who no's what will happen next.
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:icon3arlgrey:
3arlGrey Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Alright, I know this is serious and all, but..

I laughed at the horseshit pun. Fine, you can kill me now.
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
XD
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:iconnightshade-the-bozo:
Nightshade-the-Bozo Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Rob I could not agree more. I have tried to explain that to to these bronies freaking out about the the derpy appearance. You put this in better words than I ever could.
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:icontheanticat:
TheAntiCat Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Fuck yeah.
I couldn't believe the kvetching yesterday. Some people really need to get over themselves and what they think and just take the show at face value.

Am I a fan of fanon? Absolutely. But I'm a bigger fan of the "rule of law" (for lack of a better term) put forth by the show. Derpy's portrayal didn't bother me a bit. I've always seen her as an adorable klutz via fanon and that's what the creators gave us. (She dropped a piano on Twilight while wall-eyed, folks.)

Remember Derpy haters, you are free to leave the fandom at any time.
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:iconrainbowdashforever3:
RainBowDashForever3 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
I couldn't have said it any better!
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:iconmrspartin:
MrSpartin Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I agree on allmost every count but I don't think it's that people can't seperate fanon from canon so much as it is that humans in general just like to complain and become overly focused on small details. With out those traits we never would have advanced to make things better so we could feel better about past complaints and move on to some other problem to complain about then fix. I just take said complaining with a grain of salt anyway and try to enjoy the show. :shrug:
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Well, that makes sense, I just hate that they complain about the wrong stuff.
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:iconkingofthenazgul:
KingOfTheNazgul Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
I never noticed anyone complaining about the canon, just some about the voice. I don't really consider a voice to be part of a canon. What if Twilight's VA changed? It would still be the same canon Twilight. But then again, the amount of time I put into thinking about this has been the time it's taken to write this message, so you can ignore me. In fact, I'd prefer for you to ignore me.
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:iconchristmasrose16:
ChristmasRose16 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012  Student General Artist
:iconbravoplz:
Exactly.
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:iconsheldonfighter122198:
:iconclapplz: very well said! you truly do have a way with words :iconbrohoofplz:
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:iconl4m3ness:
L4m3ness Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Hmm.. giant random dam in Mare-Do-Well episode, the 'new' Luna and her voice in comparison to Discord, a pony in a hazard suit depicting the radioactivity warning sign during The Cutie Pox episode.. Are they consistent? Nah.. not really. But they serve their purpose.

Dunno, fanon vs canon is tricky business. You get influenced easier than you want. And I can't deny I'm a bit disappointed about the choice of voice for Derpy, due to fanon Derpy having pretty clever and adorable design(s..). Mmh *shrug* No need to attack anyone for that, though, which probably is what you rant about.

Was the new canon Luna really well accepted in fanart? Mh.. dunno, somehow not in my opinion. And is this a problem? Actually... no. Unless you are the kind of person that goes "OMFG BUT IT'S NOT CANON!!!!111" on everything, but you probably have too much time then? There is always freedom and fun involved in (re)interpreting what the show throws in our direction.
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Exactly.

I know, which is why I felt like bringing this up. I had the revelation like a few weeks ago, and I'm noticing others who are still like that.

Yea, that was another thing. I'm pretty sure that is when this really started, but at least I've seen a lot of acceptance for her. It's mostly now all the small and minor parts that people are going after.
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:iconjimperator:
Jimperator Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
"A lot of people apparently were upset with Derpy's "personality" in the latest episode, which made her out to be dumb and accident prone.

I don't care who you are, it was comical. This is a cartoon for little girls, not like some real life drama tv program we're watching. Back in the day, did people complain about how Bugs Bunny acted, or Daffy Duck? No, because that wasn't the point of the show!"


Quoted for truth.

I was so irked to see people actually upset that the show gave us one of the biggest nods creators can give to their fans, and then turn around and whine about the antics, or the voice or even her name. Honestly, fans need to get over themselves, sit back and enjoy the ride. Have fun with your fanon in the peripheral, don't treat it as personal expectations.
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Yes, I am in total agreement. It's just wrong of people to do that.
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:iconarmetron:
Armetron Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
You sir are absolutely right and even though I don't FULLY agree with "canon" Derpy I can accept it and move on. BTW for anyone reading my comment just because Rainbow Dash called her Derpy does not mean that that is the name on her birth certificate, "yes I like Ditzy Doo better", but its the same as Someone calling Twilight Twi, that's not her name but they still use it. So all in all their is STILL a possibility that Derpy is just a nickname that the ponies gave her, and it may not so whatever Hazbro decides we will just have to deal with it.
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:iconrobcakeran53:
ROBCakeran53 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
You have a very good point there. They only say "Derpy", not her full "Derpy Hooves" name.
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:iconcthuluigi:
Cthuluigi Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2012
Well said. You didn't really say anything I disagreed with.

Although, I do have to say that, following the EqD comments when the episode aired showed that fan response to Derpy's character was overwhelmingly positive, much like it was for Luna way back when. If there's anything good for me to say about the fanbase, it's that at least most of them can take it in stride. I've spent enough time on the internet to know that some people just can't accept the idea of their headcanon being disrupted. It's as natural as two people having differing opinions.

Me, personally, I thought they did a great job with Derpy (sans possibly her voice, but that's so subjective it's hardly worth mentioning). Her other acts involve flying north to find southern birds and being clumsy enough to drop four increasingly heavy objects on Twilight Sparkle's head from sky height, so I don't see how people figure this side of Derpy is anything new.

I'd always envisioned her as a bit of a klutz and a ditz - her alternate name being "Ditzy" speaks volumes. But all the same, she's still a lovable character who's, if nothing else, at least aware of the fact that sometimes her antics cause problems. She showed concern for Dash when she got injured from her mistake; I could ultimately liken her to Disney's Quasimodo from what little I remember of him.

It really is important for the fans to put it in perspective: she was an animation error in the first episode that had, among other things, such an impact that we gave her a name, likes, dislikes, family members, a personality, and a career - all before she made any other appearances - which for any show would be making a mountain out of an anthill.

It happened with Luna, with Derpy, with Doctor Whooves, with DJ Pon3; hell, it happened with virtually every background pony to get more than one appearance. This kind of reaction - the celebrating, the arguing, the dismissing, the ranting, and the exploding heads - can be expected with each new bit of fanon to be ascended into the show itself, and no amount of words is going to change that, sadly.

All I can say I'm glad for is that a lot of the fans have managed to remain level-headed, and are able to keep in mind this is officially Hasbro's show; maybe fans have constructed a universe based off the unknown, but it's not Hasbro's prerogative to cater to that, nor is it the fan's prerogative to expect Hasbro to cater to that.

But, like I've said, a lot of fans seem to accept that.

Which is grand.
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